Hey, folks. Welcome back to the Stronger Is Better podcast brought to you by Starting Strength Gems. I'm kind of excited to... Did good. Did good the first time. Yeah. I'm kind of excited to have a conversation with my friend and client, Erin Spiva. Yes, Spiva. Spiva. Yep. So Erin has been a client of mine for six years or so. Close to six years. Yeah, close to six years, if not... Yeah, six years. Met her here at WFAC at RIP's gym. And I think I invited her on because I want. everybody to have her perspective as a strong female lifter trainee doing a lot of things, doing a lot of things right. At the beginning, maybe doing a lot of things wrong. Yeah, that's accurate. We can talk about all that stuff. And a lot of you, I get a lot of comments. We're only four episodes deep, but I still get a lot of comments about, you know, you're talking about these things in terms of this demographic, like men or women, and then you're not talking about old people. So one of the things that I'm intending to do is try to cover everybody, right? And I think Erin is going to be a really good ambassador, representative. We'll see. Whatever, you know, spokeswoman. Sure, we all got together and voted me in. I'm putting a lot of pressure on you. Yeah, putting a lot of pressure. Anyway, so we're going to talk about her experiences with barbell training, with lifting and training history, her experiences with progress and with her results, which have been really, really impressive over the years. And, yeah, we'll just have kind of a long-form discussion on training in general. So hope you guys enjoy it. Again, if you have any questions or if you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to me. If you have any suggestions for topics, I want to put this at the beginning for you guys. It's podcast at ssgyms.com. Send them there, and then I'll see them, and we'll try to fit them in. Okay, so welcome, Erin. Thank you. Thank you for joining. I don't know how nervous you are about this. I'm a little nervous, but it's just you and I, so I'm not going to pay attention to all those people, right? And the tens of thousands of people who are going to be. Yeah, I don't think there's that many people right now. Maybe that'll change after this one. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, we'll get all the women. Yeah, there you go. All the women. And then they'll come back, and they'll be like, who is this guy? Like, why is he just. Bring her back. Yeah, bring her back. There was that video. It was a while ago. I don't remember what the video was about, but we used you as a thumbnail. Oh, yeah. So it's like you rack pulling or something. Yes. You're wearing, I think, a pink tank top, and then you're not in the video, and everybody was pissed. This was on Starting Strengths. Yes. It was, I think, the form check video. Oh, it's on Reddit. It's on Reddit, and then also, yeah, on YouTube. Cause I've, I started it. So when I need a little self esteem boost, I can go back and look at all those comments. Oh, okay. Yeah. So the Redditors are extra pissed. Yeah. Those guys are sorry guys. Yeah. That's hilarious. Um, but she'll be on the thumbnail for this and she's actually in the video. So that's, that's great. Um, okay. So let's just kind of start at the beginning. So women, um, so generally my, my thinking, and I think the thinking of a, of a competent. coach is not to make assumptions, right? So even if you're training, even if you're training a female, um, you're generally going to proceed exactly the same way as you would for anything else. And the program is, is set up that way where, uh, and I talked about this in other, in other episodes, the program is set up in a, in a way to minimize as many variables as possible. So first day in the gym, first week in the gym, first month in the gym, even maybe even two, three months, depending on who it is, the program doesn't really change at all from men to women. In fact, women, um, do, um, women do a much better job with coaching typically. So women, um, women, And for a lot of reasons, you know, women are more flexible generally. Women take coaching and instruction generally better than men. Women don't have as many bad habits when it comes to the gym because they a lot of times haven't spent a lot of time doing barbell training or just kind of tinkering on their own. And then also women don't have this generally don't have this ego that men have and all the assumptions and all the things that come with it. So, yeah, in my my personal experience as a coach, I've always had a large majority of female trainees versus male trainees. So even, you know, even when I was doing a lot of in-person coaching, it was almost always mostly females. Personal training is almost always female. And I think I think guys just think they can figure it out and they are good on them for sure. But but women are more are generally more willing to take instruction and take coaching. So. Anyway, all that to say that I guess I'm saying that I'm not inexperienced. working with women for one thing, but also, uh, at the beginning, nothing really changes. You're going to do the novice linear progression. You're going to any assessments basically come. from just teaching the lifts and doing the lifts. And then the progression is very, very rapid, just like it is for anybody else. And then really the only, the only consideration, at the beginning for training men versus women, uh, or, or men versus women lifting is that there's a neuromuscular efficiency component that needs to be accounted for. So, um, and you probably, you know this and you remember it well, right? So, um, the, the, as far as neuromuscular efficiency goes, uh, men and women are different. So men have generally larger muscles, they're. bigger, right? There's, there's, uh, things that happen as you're, when you're in utero, and then it kind of completes the process when you're going through puberty. Uh, and you, and mostly that's the effects of testosterone in utero and then during puberty. So men are, men are larger, men are stronger, uh, have thicker, denser bones. Um, and then, Also, on top of that, there's this neuromuscular efficiency component, which all that really means to make it as simple as possible is that men are able to recruit muscle mass at a much – well, I'm not going to say much because I don't know – at a faster rate than women. And what that means is for any given effort against the load, whatever percentage of motor units, meaning the muscles that are connected to a nerve, the muscle fibers that are connected to a nerve, how many of those are going to fire in what sequence and how rapidly is going to be determined by all these factors. So men have a faster rate of recruitment than women. So what that means in practice is that men are going to respond. To a set of five and have a four to six reps is – four to six reps is – that's uncontested anywhere. That's the range for building strength, four to six reps. In starting strength, we do fives, but that's based on a typical male. So a typical male will respond really, really well to heavy reps. God, a typical male will respond really well to heavy sets of five for a long time, and that actually serves as the base for your strength training forever. So no matter what you're doing, you're always going to be doing a pretty good amount of sets of five with strength training. So let's start with that as kind of the base assumption here. Because women recruit motor units at a slower rate, then they actually need a higher stress because the things that contribute to this systemic stress that barbell training provides are twofold. Number one is the load on the bar, and then number two is the time that you're under that load. And this is highly simplified, right? But how long? You're exerting against that load. And then how heavy is the load so that the sets of five, the kind of the magic with, with a, with a heavy set of five is that that's sort of the sweet spot for both of those things, heavy load. And then also the amount of time that you're experiencing that, uh, that load, uh, because, because women aren't recruiting muscle mass typically at the same rate, uh, usually in conventional sort of exercise science, personal training, what they'll do is say, okay, so you're not as neuromuscular efficient. So in order to give you long lean tone muscles, what we're going to do is sets of eight to 12 to account for that. Um, and that's a hundred percent the wrong way to do it. If we're trying to build muscle and you're trying to, trying to increase force production capacity. So what you do is you have to figure out how to make the bar heavier, uh, because actually what's happening with women at very pretty early in the novice linear progression is that the load on the bar doing sets of five isn't stressful enough. So it's, it's kind of like we talked about, I talked about in the press episode. Um, you have. under-stressed situation. So in order to continue accounting for that, what you do is go down to sets of three. So rather than three sets of five, you do five sets of three, and then you can make the bar heavier, and then you get unstuck or you continue making progress. So as some practical advice there, if you're a woman or if you're coaching women, as soon as the bar starts slowing down in the novice linear progression, as soon as the reps get kind of grindy, I'm switching women over to threes, and that's five sets of three for the squat, the bench, the power clean. I'm sorry. Five sets of three for the squat, the bench, and the press. Two sets of three for the deadlift, and then the power clean can kind of stay where it's at if you're doing that. So that makes the bar heavier, and then you can kind of cruise for a long time doing the triples rather than the fives. If you try to stay on sets of fives, and people make this mistake all the time, what will happen is you get just a sharp ... ... steep drop-off in performance. So you'll... You would come into the gym. You're supposed to squat 185 for three sets of five. You did 180 or 182 two days ago, and it looked great. Everything was fine. And then you come into the gym, and then you do your first rep, second rep, third rep, and then fourth rep just goes down on the pins. And then the inexperienced coach will look at you and say, Aaron, did you eat enough food? Did you sleep enough? How much weight have you gained? And, yeah, don't do that because that's not the problem. It's just there's not enough stress. So I don't like to wait until that occurs for a lot of reasons, especially when you're dealing with people who aren't familiar with strength training. Like failure is not a great idea, especially that early. Like there's no reason to fail. So, again, as soon as the bar starts slowing down, we're switching to threes, and then you can cruise for a long time. So, again, to kind of wrap this part up, there's not much difference. All you're going to do is switch from fives to threes, and then things are fine. And then remember, once you go into more advanced programming, As soon as you are, as soon as you're not talking about the heaviest intensities for the, for the week, um, you can go back to fives, right? So, um, like even in practical programming, this, this, uh, this needs to be updated, but even in practical programming, like for a female doing Texas method, it says to do eight sets of threes to get to like the same kind of five sets of five. There's no reason to do that. You could just go five sets of five and get the same thing accomplished. Now on your intensity day, you probably want to be doing a lot of triples versus a heavy set of five. Um, the other interesting thing about training women, because again, of the neuromuscular efficiency deal is that women are able to do slow, heavy, grindy reps, um, like one after the other, right? So you can do like, like you're, you're going to be able to do, um, uh, a really heavy squat and you can probably do it again. Um, maybe the same or close within the same day. Yeah. Right. For, for a guy, if he's close to, um, close to. Close to like a 97% of a one rep max heavy squat, he's probably done for the day. And, you know, even coming back to the novice phase, if you're doing like your heavy sets of three, that bar could be moving like this. Like it could be really slow and grindy, where if you're watching a man do that, you'd be like, oh, he's going to fail the next set. This ain't happening. But for a female, like rest a few minutes, get back under the bar, and then there we go. Yeah, you're good to go, right? Because that's the rate of recruitment part of it. So the longer you're pushing against the bar, your motor units are kind of switching on and off, and then you're able to just get through that. Where once the high force production motor units are sort of taxed for the guy, he's kind of done, right? So kind of sounds like other things, right? I was going to say, just keep going and going. Okay, all right, let's not make this too weird. Um, okay. So anyway, you've experienced this single hand or firsthand, right? So, um, why don't you, so I think when I first met you, um, you were in the gym, uh, you had already started kind of training in the gym with, uh, by yourself because you'd, you'd worked, uh, in Austin with, uh, with. Joyce and then, um, and then moved to Wichita Falls. So I guess, tell me all the kind of that story, how you started at Wichita Falls athletic club. Sure. How far back do you want me to go? So we can just start at WFAC. So, okay. Yeah. So like actually, actually, sorry. Um, maybe start with your training history with barbells. Okay. So that would be probably about a decade ago. Like a lot of people, um, I was at a point in my life where I was heavy, not happy with it. So I started running and that was whatever running is awful. And then I found. CrossFit and I did CrossFit for a couple of years and CrossFit was okay in the beginning. And then I hated the running part again, hated the rowing, but I really loved it. The barbells. Okay. So then I did some barbell training on my own. I found the StrongList program. I knew about starting strength, but I was a little intimidated to go to the gym. So I did my own thing. You know this gym right over here in this business that's like from the 80s? It's in the oil and gas building. Oh, I've seen pictures of it. I trained there by myself for a while. Is it still there? It probably is. Never going to go anywhere. It's going to be there like 100 years from now, I'm sure. All right. And then I moved to Austin, and I found Joyce because she was by a Starbucks that was by my office. Nice. Yeah. But it was really great because I was at my point in my life. I was a little unsure of things, and it was a woman-owned barbell gym, and it was awesome. She did a program where she would alternate. So like she would do barbells one day, and then the next day she did kettlebells because she had this world record in kettlebells, and that was her thing. And then I moved back to Wichita Falls, and I thought I had the knowledge to just kind of do it on my own because I've been training with Joyce for probably about three years. So I tried to do my own programming. That lasted for like a couple months. I was spinning my wheels at the Wichita Falls Athletic Club. And then I remembered you because I did that coaching. training program for a little bit. Oh, right, right, yeah. Because I really thought, I love going to the gym, and that was like my third place, so I thought that I'd be a coach, but my mind is just, it doesn't work that way. So then I contacted you, and you were so kind to take me on, and it's been like that for like six years. But before that, like I said, I was trying to do my own thing, like a heavy, light, medium day type thing, and just wasn't going anywhere. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and I remember, I remember we talked a little bit, and then I have your, I should have brought it with me, but I have your training log, and your, from what I remember, your form was pretty rough. It was not great, especially the squat, oh my God. Yeah, and one of the things about you is that you're really, really bendy, really, really flexible, so like you tend to like bottom out, you tend to move pretty fast. So I remember at the beginning, at least, it was getting you to like slow down and kind of feel the positions. And in a lot of ways, that's kind of on. I'm going like forever. It's always going to happen. But, yeah, that's just part of the deal, right? So do you remember kind of like what were your lifts at that point? Sure. So, again, this was awful form. So I feel like we kind of had to take a couple steps back and then build back up. When I came to you, I was probably squatting. My heaviest might have been like 225. I had hit 100 pounds on press not that long before that. 135 with like the worst form ever on bench, like my butt was flying up. And then I don't remember exactly. My deadlift might have been like 275, 280. I had hit a 315 block pull, though, just like six months before I saw you. And then I could do like a chin-up. Okay, okay. Like the fall before, because I think we started working in the summer, I did like my very first chin-up. Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, your numbers have gone up quite a bit. But in addition to that, you've also, I don't remember like how much you weighed. When you first started, but. You've had periods of gaining weight and then periods of losing weight, right? So do you remember about how much you weighed then? Yeah. So I could say my heaviest as a post-college woman, I was 200 pounds at one point. That's what started this whole fitness journey of mine. I'm currently 160, so people are trying to compare themselves. I would say in recent years, I'll flex up to 180, 190. That's not ideal, but it happens. And then go back down to about 160. So when I met you, I think I was right around 175, 180. Okay. If you remember, what's kind of the heaviest you were in the time we've been working together? I've been up to like 185, 187. Okay. And you're like, how tall are you? Well, that's one of those things where I've had my husband measure me, and it says 5'3.5". My driver's license says 5'5". So I like to say 5'4". That's like the middle between reality and my fantasy world. Yeah, that's good. Okay. Yeah, you don't want to be 5'3 or under. No, no, no. Because that's a problem. Everybody who's 5'3 and under has issues. You can't reach things. difficult. So we'll say five, four, just to make it even. Okay. All right. Cool. And then, um, overall, what would you say in terms of, um, the, uh, yeah, I guess if you can just talk about a little bit, cause I mean the reality, and by the way, this, this applies to men and women for sure. But, uh, you know, the idea that nobody cares about how they look is, is a lie. That's not true. Yeah. I mean, if we're honest with ourselves, I think the reason that probably the single most important reason that most people who aren't in bad shape, like aren't like injured or hurting or something are going to start going to the gym is because they want to look better. Right. And looking better, like the way, the way I've organized my thinking around looking better, because it's easy to get into like, Oh, do you want to be a bodybuilder? Like bodybuilders do this thing. Power lifters do this power lifters look a certain way, you know, uh, sprinters look. a certain way. So it's too easy to get into like that sort of discussion. And there's too many factors that are, that, involved in that, right? So there's genetics, there's your training methods, there's drugs potentially, there's all these different things that are involved. But the truth is, what I think most people want to do is look more athletic and more capable. So like when people talk about wanting to look toned, when people want to have abs, when people want to have skinny guys want to be bigger, you know, skinny women want to be look more toned or more muscular, or they want. to lose weight, they want to get bigger, but or bigger, but right, all that means is like, to look more athletic and more capable. So I like to I like to frame it in the terms of of looking athletic, like looking like you can do things. Because generally, that means looking more muscular, looking more, more lean, yes, and looking more capable, which I think kind of appeals to that sort of like, caveman cavewoman thing that's that's buried deep within us where like, you can look at somebody and say, Oh, yeah, like, I don't want to fuck with that person. Or, you know, that's somebody I want to talk to, you know, that kind of stuff. So anyway, can you give us your thoughts on on, Like your sort of aesthetic journey, so to speak? Yeah, so I'd be lying if I said that I started this because I was concerned about my health. That wasn't the case. So a decade ago when I decided to start jogging is because we took a family picture and I saw myself at like 202 pounds. And I was like, what on earth has happened to me? You know, you go to college, you're not doing all the sports you do in college or you did in high school. My college had chocolate milk on tap, so I was drinking chocolate milk just like crazy. Crazy. Like you could just go anytime and get a cup of chocolate milk? Yeah, exactly. You had a little meal card. They always had a dessert bar. So it's just so much chocolate milk, so much dessert. Isn't it amazing that there's people who like can't gain weight? I do not understand that at all. Like just follow me around and I will feed you what I want to eat. I feel so bad for – and I think I've said this before, but it's way easier. Like if you were to compare a skinny person who needs to gain 30, 40, 50, 80 pounds in some instances to somebody who is like – who needs to lose 100 pounds, the person who needs – The person who needs to lose 100 pounds is in a better position to do that than the person who needs to gain 50 pounds. Because the person who needs to gain 50 pounds has to actively do something that they don't enjoy consistently, every single day, every single meal. They have to be thinking about food constantly, where I think about food all the time. Oh, yeah. I've never missed a meal. All I have to do is less of a thing that I enjoy, and that's reasonable. I think that's where a little skinny dude or a really skinny female, getting them to eat is the hardest thing in the world. That's just not how my brain works. I don't understand it at all. Here's some Ben and Jerry's or whatever it is, a Swiss cake roll, and just go to town. Yeah, it's very weird. Chocolate milk on tap is an easy hack. So good. I saw this family picture of me. My belly was further out. I was further out than my chest. I was round. My face was puffy, and I hated it. So that's why I decided to start trying to lose weight, obviously, and get into a better shape. And I think... one of the fears, the traps that women fall into is if they touch a barbell, they're going to get. big and bulky. You know, it's like that thing you see online just because you are in a race car doesn't make you like a NASCAR driver. It's the same thing. I think you cannot accidentally get bulky as a woman. Um, and the process of trying to get bulky will get you the physique that you want. Um, the link, I hate, I hate the word. What is it like cut or trip? Like that doesn't make sense to me. You want the big muscles and then you're going to get the lean athletic look that you're going for. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Um, yes. Like it, I think, I think we could say that you have, and not that this was like a stated goal, but the way you've trained. is in a, in a fashion to actively try to get bulky. Like, I mean, that's the training methods that you would use. Um, and I guess it's subjective, but you know, you haven't turned into a horrific bulky, bulky woman. Not yet. Not yet at least. Um, but yeah, the bulky thing is like, it's a thing that just won't die. And, and, and I tend to think, Um, uh, fear of the unknown type of a thing, but, but the other, even like, even if that was a concern, you can stop, you can stop, right? Like, like you can stop as soon as you look in the mirror, like, oh damn, like I'm really bulky now. I accidentally have like huge arms. How did that happen? Yeah. And the other thing to remember is like, there are, there are thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of young men who go, young men who have testosterone, who have high levels of testosterone, um, going to the gym every single day, doing everything they can legally to make themselves bulky. And those guys go to the gym and they spend potentially hours in the gym and they look exactly the same every month, you know? So, uh, it doesn't, like you said, it doesn't happen by accident. Um, and the, uh, basically all the, all the things that people are typically looking for from an aesthetic perspective, uh, are kind of like achieved through heavy barbell training, right? Cause you can, you can, uh, run. You can diet and you can do like. Like, you can do low-carb stuff and start doing a bunch of cardio, do CrossFit or something like that. And you tell me what your experience was, but typically you just kind of shrink, but you look the same. Like, your shape is the same. You just get smaller, right? And you're just, like, a smaller version of, like, that other person. Like, the only thing that can really transform your appearance is heavy barbell training. Yeah, you get skinny fat, basically, right? Sure, sure. You shrink down. Yeah, and even if you build muscle, it's not a lot, right? It's just kind of like you're just kind of like a smaller, maybe a little bit leaner version of what you were. But in order to look different, like, you look different than you did five years ago. Oh, yeah. 100%, right? And in order to look different, you have to lift heavy because that's how you build tissue. That's how you build muscle. That's how you build connective tissue. That's how you build bone. So there's really only one way to get the actual goal that you want. The bitch of it is it is really hard. It's really, really difficult. Right? Yeah, I mean, it's you say it's hard. I mean, it's simple, but it's hard, if that makes any sense, right? Absolutely. Like, it's simple to pick something up heavy and set it back down. I guess the hard part is just carving out the time and just, like, doing it. Yep. But it's not like it's some beaker scientific whatever. It's just, I mean, a caveman can pick up a rock and set it down. That's right. And I want to go back a little bit to what you're saying about trying to transform your physique, because I think the other benefit, I think a lot of women, we're always trying to lose weight, right? We're always trying to be smaller, take up less space, whatever that is. And the great thing about barbell training, too, is that, like, I love to eat. We're going to say that probably a hundred times. You can keep eating like a normal person. Like, you don't cut down to 1,200 calories. You can keep kind of eating the stuff that you like, because all the tissue, the muscle, the bone, it requires a lot of calories. So it's not as big of a shift. Right. Like, you're not starving yourself as you're running endlessly on a treadmill. Yeah, in fact, you can't, right? No, you can't. You'll burn out. You have to eat, actually. And carbs. Like, I did the low carb. I did Whole30 before. I did low carbs. God, that was just miserable. Yeah. You know what I mean? No energy. Yeah. Which. For women who are training for a long time, it's not uncommon for them to need to eat. I mean, I've got multiple female clients who have to eat 2,200 calories a day, 2,500 calories a day. And we're talking about 130, 150 grams of protein to keep them recovered. But that's a lot of calories compared to what women will typically eat, especially if they're kind of in this like weight loss, leaning out mode, right? So it's exactly like you said, like 1,200 calories, you know, whatever protein, and you're basically maintaining or starving yourself. But, yeah, it's hard work. It's hard work. And then if you like food. You're screwed. Well, but conversely, if you like food, I mean, lifting is the way to do it, right? So I can tell the audience because I think people like to compare just so they know I'm 36 years old. I'm a female. I don't have kids. I've never had kids. But I'm like the end of my little cutting phase, and I'm losing weight. like 1,800 to 1,900 calories a day, like losing half a pound a week. Yeah, and you've been kind of on that protocol for how long now? It's been like four months? Well, so I've been losing because I swung back up to that 180 about a year ago, and then I took a break right around the holidays because I had hit like 165 and I just wanted to maintain. So, yeah, for about the past three or four months, and I took a vacation in there. Yep, yep, yeah. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about kind of like habits and stuff because one of the things that is really interesting about you and people like you is, you know, it's been six years, and you basically are doing the same thing you've been doing for six years. I mean, fairly recently we've added like just a couple of random upper body stuff. Yeah, and it's not just for fun. It's like, you know, what are you pressing right now? I could probably do a heavy single 110-ish. Yeah, so that's, I mean, that's heavy. That's a heavy. It's all relative, though. Like you said. Yeah. I mean, that's a heavy press for somebody, for somebody your size. Um, so we've gone through this kind of progression of like sets of five sets of three splitting up, you know, fives and singles adding pin presses. Like there was a time I think you were doing pin presses twice. You were pressing four days a week. Right. So it was like volume and then pin presses and then another day of pin presses and then another day of singles. Yeah. And then, um, the question is, so like, what do you do next? Right. So I, you can't, we can't really do more. No, I mean, you could try, but, uh, so, so at some point it's like you have to add just more overall work. So your, your program is fairly basic. And then all of the, the sort of quote unquote bro lifts just are just adding more, adding to the overall stress. Right. But that works as a woman who's pressing regularly over a hundred pounds, um, doing volume work at, you know, what is it? It's like nine in the nine 80s, 85s, 90s, maybe a little bit lower than that. Um, so, you know, you're hitting 15 to 25 reps at a pretty significant weight. Right. And then also you're doing all this other lower body stuff in addition to all your other activities, right? So if we just hammer you with more benching and more pressing, and this is what we'll get into a little bit later, but then it interferes with all the other activities you need to do, right? So you have to be able to apply stress and kind of a more localized stress without beating you up so you can't do all the other things that you enjoy. So, yeah, that's a topic we'll get into because, you know, after a certain amount of time, lifting can't be your only thing unless you're a competitive lifter. Right. It can't be. Otherwise, I mean, there's people out there who are kind of, for lack of a better term, like autistic enough that they just want to do the same thing all the time. But for most people, it's like we need to, like, find a hobby, dude. Sure. Like, find something else to do. So, anyway, yeah, let's talk about kind of your programming. So your programming is really simple. Well, how does it look to you? Does it, like, when you look at it, does it make sense? Is it complicated? Is it fairly simple? I think it's simple. So we just, like you mentioned, we recently changed. I changed it three or four months ago because I think I was getting to a point where I was a little bored. Like, we've been doing the same thing, and it was working, though. I think it was just more of a mental thing for me to do something a little bit different. It's just three days a week. I was doing four days a week, but I think we're going to get into later. I wanted to move down to three days a week to focus on some other activities. And it's, yeah, we're doing more bench now because I have the goal of benching my body weight. We do a lot of lower body stuff just because I love pulls. And we do at least, it feels like we're doing, like, two different pull activities a week, right? Because we're doing those dimple deadlifts and then something else. And then just really one press day. So we've gone from four to one, like, actual press. Like, we're still doing Arnold presses. We're doing other upper body stuff. But it's simple, but there's a pattern to it. It's easy to follow. Yep, yep. Yeah, you can thank Will Morris for the dimple deadlifts. Oh, God, they're awful. He had me do those when my back was injured. And, yeah, and then I was like, oh, everybody's doing these now. And it's the thing with those dimple deadlifts. You have me on the press. Program. I increase by a rep every week, and then at the four weeks, I'm going to go up two pounds. It's like one of those things. By the time I'm doing eight reps, I am so ready to go up in weight so I can go back down. So you go back down in reps. So I can go back down. Well, maybe not right now, but there was a point where you were handling some pretty serious weight. I was like, what the hell? Because one of the things, you probably noticed this, is things are just running, right? So as I'm doing the programming, I'm like, okay, yeah, it looks good. Move up, move up, move up. And then every once in a while, maybe in response to a question or something, or I'll just look at it and be like, let's see where we're at. And it's like, holy shit. She's doing sets of eight. Do you remember? It was like 240? That's what I'm at right now. It was like 247. Yeah, but this was a while ago when you were first starting it. We're close to 250, something, 260. If you don't know what a dimmel deadlift is, check it out. But yeah, 240, 250 pounds for six to eight reps. That's serious. It's serious business. I think it's like, I'm kind of getting tired and I can't really. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So Aaron, Aaron strong guys. So what are, yeah, so let's, let's go through. So when we first started, we probably did a, like a short NLP. Yes. Spent a little bit of time doing, and, and you having been around for, for this long, you're kind of like in the same boat as like Bree. So you've gotten a, you've gotten to experience all of the different experimentation and stuff. Um, and yeah, it's, it's gone well, uh, fortunately, but, um, sort of like the, the setup that you're on now, I think it's been like the general like template and it's, it's pretty much what I talked about in the, in the first episode, but the general template was, um, probably we started that. It's probably been two years, two and a half years, maybe even longer than that. So, um, yeah, I just want to kind of point that out that it's like, you've got a lifter who's been training diligently and without, um, I mean, you, you don't. miss workouts, you know? No, I mean, I go on vacation. Yeah, but that's, that's not missed, like it's planned, right? So, um, so. you don't miss workouts. You do, you do everything you need to do, but we've, we've been running the same basic sort of template. So there's a difference between like an actual program and sort of a template, right? So in terms of the structure of the program, it's been almost the same for over two years, right? Like the heavy single and then the 80% back offsets. Exactly. Exactly. Right. Yeah. So, um, yeah, how do you, um, how do you, let's talk about like the, the singles, let's talk about how, um, your, your thoughts on how like strength training works for you. And then we can kind of get into how it fits in with all the other things you're doing, right now. You go into the gym and like, what is your objective for the day? What is your, cause at the beginning it was like add weight and then add weight next time and then add weight next time. So there's a, I think that there's, there's going to be a, well, I know that there's going to be a different sort of like perception about what you're doing and you have days that are heavier. You have days that are easier. You have days that, you hate and you have days that you like. So like, so right now when you, when you walk into the gym, Um, when you finish that workout, what do you want to, what do you want to happen? Like, what do you want to feel like? What do you want to, uh, to experience? So every workout, I still always have a number of mines. So even though we're not actively adding weight to the bar every time I still, maybe it's, I want to hit six press singles and I want them all to be above a hundred pounds or whatever it happens to be. So I always try to have a number of mine so I can work towards it. And then it varies. I think as you are advancing more in your lifting career, maybe you can tune in a little. bit better. It's like, Oh, I slept horribly or my nutrition, but it's not like I'm going to take 30 pounds off. I might tweak it a couple of pounds. Um, I'm still, I'm, I'm always chasing the PR. So it's like whenever I do my heavy singles, especially for like my pulling lifts, I still, okay. Last week I, or last month I hit two 45. So this one time I want to hit two 47. So I still like, I think it's just a mental thing to you. You want to feel like you're progressing towards something. Um, I am at the point now. Now I don't want to feel wrung out at the end of it. So I feel like when I first started, if I wasn't just like a sweaty mess dying, it wasn't effective. But now I want to be able to go take my dog on a walk afterwards or just do something. I don't want it to be so – it doesn't take over my life as much, right? It's part of my life. It's not the end-all, be-all, if that makes sense. Absolutely. Yeah, great, great. That's exactly what I was hoping you'd say. That wasn't planned. No, not at all. But, I mean, this is kind of the reason I want to talk to you about this because you have a generally very healthy relationship and a good balance between your training and everything else. I think as a coach, one of the most frustrating things is that people stop early. They stop when it gets hard. They refuse to sort of find the balance because – I mean, tell me if you agree with this, but once you're – it's like Pandora's box. Once you're into barbell training. It never gets easier for one. Oh, no. It only gets harder. But also – So but also you shouldn't stop like you have to do it for the rest of your life, because, you know, depending on what stage stage you're in in your life, if you're younger, you need to get as big as muscular as possible to set yourself up. Right. For for injury prevention, longevity, all the things down the line, you know, even things like blood sugar control and all these things like all that matters when you're when you're young. If you're like kind of in midlife, it's like holding on or even even improving. Right. So, like, I get a lot of questions from guys who are like in their 50s and they're like, oh, you know, should I only train twice a week? Should I I mean, you know, clients that I've had who started in their 50s and they're like hitting PRs and getting up to incredibly heavy numbers. So, you know, at that age, it's like get as much as you can. It's going to be as it's going to be slower than if you were younger, but get as much as you can. And then for the people who are who are older than that, then it's like it's. Just prolonging your ability to do things. Right. So anyway, this is a lifelong process. So, you know, when you start somebody out, you see a lot of progress two to three, four months down the line. And then they start having trouble with, like, first of all, the effort because it's hard and it sucks. But then also just the ability to balance it with the rest of their life. And then you start getting questions like, hey, I think I want to do this thing and I want to try this other thing. And my contention is that you should do other things. You absolutely should do other things. There's probably a short period of time when you first start that you should primarily be focused on barbell training. That doesn't mean you have to quit doing everything else. But after that, it's all about finding the balance, right? So one of the things that you do really well is define your goals. You know, so whenever we talk, it's like, okay, so what do you want to do next? You have reasonable goals. Like, they're not insane. You have reasonable goals. You are consistent in working towards those goals, which is the most important thing. It's like, you know, if you have a goal, you have a plan. Stick to the plan. Don't miss. Be consistent. Be compliant. And that'll get you, like, most. Right. And then also the third part of it is that you have a reasonable and consistent goals and like a relationship with how this fits within your whole life. Right. Now there's parts of it that, that you are, again, for lack of a better term, like really anal about, but you have to be like, you're, you're not going to miss training. You're going to arrange your schedule so that you, you do things. You're going to, you're going to have like your baggie of chicken or whatever when you leave the house. My travel chicken. Travel chicken. But, but that's, that's what it takes to do what you've done. Right. And, and what you've done is, is, is pretty impressive or is very impressive. But even if you, even if you don't go sort of to that level, you still have to figure out how to balance this with your whole life. Right. So I know that's like a lot and kind of random in terms of my thoughts, but what do you, what do you think? You have any thoughts there? Well, you, you make it sound like I am just single-mindedly obsessed with this. I guess there are – I think you have to do that in the beginning to set the habits maybe, and then after that, it's just kind of on autopilot. So we're joking about my baggy chicken. Protein is important. I still love to go out to eat, go out to dinner, dinner dates with my husband. But if I haven't hit my protein goal, I'll have precooked chicken in my fridge, and I just toss it in a bag, and I eat it on my way to dinner. I mean it sounds silly, but it's not like it's a – it's not a high-effort thing, right? It's not like I'm telling him, oh, we can't go out to eat because I need to – no, it's just something I've fooled into my life or my training. So I am a dilly-dallier, so I might take on a normal day like two hours. It could probably be down to like an hour 15 if I really got to it. But if we want to go out, I just know I have to cut down on my rest periods a little bit or just be a little bit more efficient. But it's not like I'm telling the people in my life that we can't go out because I have to hit the gym. I don't do that. I will shift some things around, but, I mean, there's a whole life to live. My life is not the gym. Yep, yep. Yeah, yeah. So if I made it sound like that, that's – I actually meant the opposite. I mean that you do a good job of like making it all work, right? Because, yeah. You definitely can't turn it into into a job and you definitely can't turn it into something that interferes with your relationships with your family and your and your spouse and and your friends and all the other things you have going on. So. So, yeah, if you don't mind, let's let's kind of get into into those into those habits, because it's like one of these things that when like if we talk and we come up with a plan, I I almost like don't have to check on you like it's getting done, you know. So maybe maybe talk a little bit about about goal setting and how you how you think about goal setting. Think if you can talk about the how your goals have shifted over the last five years, because that's definitely been a thing. Right. And then how you make it work. Yeah. So when I think about goals, I guess there's always just the next weight. So right now, the goal that we're working towards is a bodyweight bench. And then I would like to pull four or five. The first will be like a rack pull and then my deadlift, obviously. And it's it's nice, I think. have a goal so you know if you're moving towards something, but it's like I'm not going to be pulling 550 anytime soon or if ever. I don't know if the genetics are there for that, but it's nice to have something there that you can keep working towards. A lot of my goals are like weight and. physique based. That's been up and down over the years, but that's one of the things that we're talking about for planning is I know I have to hit a certain amount of calories, a certain amount of protein. I want some fats in there to keep mental clarity and things moving. For example, I've talked about this in your chat that you have with your clients. Every week, I bulk prep a meat. Lately, it's chicken thighs just because it tastes so much better than chicken breast, but I just throw two to four pounds of chicken thighs in the slow cooker, let it go with some basic seasoning, and I just have a bulk set of chicken. I've tried the meal. prep thing. I am not the person that's going to spend six hours on a Sunday making a little Instagram. I just can't do that. It's so cute, but that's not me. I will bulk prep a meat, and then I will bulk prep a grain. Lately, it's been like quinoa, with some chicken broth and spinach all cooked together, and then, I will portion that out, but then that way I have all this chicken, so I can throw it into my quinoa. I can throw it into SpaghettiOs. I can throw it into canned soups. I can put it in a wrap. So that's one of those things I was talking about that it might seem that I'm a little obsessive or a little bit weird about things, but it takes three minutes to throw it into the slow cooker and let it do its thing. It's not like I'm spending my entire weekend meal prepping for the week. Yeah, so it's not about being neurotic or anal. It's about being just a little bit intentional. Yeah, just a little bit prepared. Yeah, a little bit intentional, a little bit prepared. Okay, so in terms of like your training schedule, do you have like set times every day or on training days that you're just going to train? Yeah, it's just after work. So I guess if I had to give one piece of advice to your listeners is that you just kind of have to figure out who you are when you're trying to achieve goals, but go back to the goals thing. So I am not a morning person. I would love to be the person that wakes up at 5 in the morning and just greets the sun and like goes and lifts and, you know, the ice plunge, whatever the hell. But I'm not going to do that. Occasionally, you have to if you have stuff going after work. But I know that I feel my best. I train my best right after work. So I set that up. So Monday, Wednesday, Friday, just get done. I work from home. I'm pretty fortunate. Close the laptop. Go work out at my gym that I have in my house. Same thing with the meal prep thing I was talking about. I've tried to be the Instagram portion of everything else, but that's just not me. Obviously, you have to make changes to who you are a little bit if you're going to achieve goals because you have to move from your equilibrium. But you can't just overnight be like, I'm going to be this totally different person. If you work with who you are, it just makes it so much easier. Yeah, and it's never a good idea to make so many changes to your current life that it's not sustainable. So sustainability is the way to think about it. So I assume or I suspect that where you are today with all of these habits and making everything work is the result of a slow incremental process. Maybe at the beginning. It was like, this is what everybody does, right? You start a new thing and you get super excited about it. And you're like, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this other thing. And this is going to be my new life. But that's not the way it works. Life happens, right? Yeah. Life shows you that, man, you are not a morning person. So you're going to sleep through your alarm every time. So why set yourself up for failure? Just do something else. Yeah. What are you, what can you, can you kind of remember over the, over the course of, of us working together, what your, what your kind of big goals have been during that time? Yeah, so one of my very first goals when we started working together is I wanted to. deadlift 315. And I don't know if you remember this, but I hit that at one of the competitions at the athletic club. Yeah. I was so excited. So that was one of the first things I wanted to do. And now, I mean, I just deadlift 315 on any random Monday. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Um, I'm trying to think something that I wanted to be able to do multiple pull-ups just because that seemed really cool. That was awesome because yeah, that was cool because it didn't, I don't remember it taking very long. No. Um, it was one of those things that I think you have to get stronger than also. Lose. weight at the same time. So, but yeah, it's almost like you just wake up and then you go. from doing one to three to four. Right. Right. Yeah. That that's, that's something that moves fast. Like my squat weight on the bar, I feel like that always just moves so slow, but chin-ups are different. Um, yeah, there's been, I mean, there's been a couple and we kind of already touched on this, but there's been a couple of times where it's like a period of like, okay, I'm going to drop down to X amount of weight and then, and then all the things that come along with that while trying to retain as much strength as possible, obviously. Yes, exactly. Right. Cause there's two ways to do it, right? You can lose weight very quickly or you can, um, you can. take a gradual approach and not lose a lot of strength. No. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I mean, uh, your progress definitely slowed down and that's, that's one of the reasons that you're not, um, uh, lifting. I mean, you're lifting heavy, like really heavy, but you're not lifting heavier than you, than you could because, um, you could be 200 pounds and be stronger, probably much, much stronger. But, uh, what's the point? Right. Right. I mean, if you, if you can. If you can walk into the gym and deadlift 315 or rack pull 365 whenever you want, are you – not to say that you're strong enough, but the tradeoff is do you want to be Aaron at 200 pounds at 5'3 to do that? For competitive aspirations, that may be worthwhile, but – I'd rather move comfortably through society. Exactly. Yeah, and life, and life in general, right? Because anytime you're going into anything that's in a competitive realm, you're making tradeoffs, right? Exactly. Because you're – and one of the tradeoffs is your health. So yeah, anyway, all that to say that like – because there's some asshole out there who's saying, oh, well, she started with a two-whatever deadlift, and she's only deadlifting 345 or 365 now. Like that's not a lot. Dude, it's a – you're 5'4". Thank you. 5'4 woman who has gone from 200 pounds-ish to 160 pounds-ish and probably leaner than you've ever been, right? I feel like I look better than I ever have. Yep, and still moving really heavy weights because people take this like binary sort of like I'm either going to be strong or I'm going to look aesthetic, right? And that's absolutely not the case because you managed to – and the way you've done it is like, okay, you give yourself a realistic amount of time. So if you're like at 175, 180, you want to get down to 165 or 160, like how long is it going to take? First of all, you don't really set to – it seems to me like you don't really set a hard expectation for it. You're kind of like let's run the process, which is a smart way to do it. But it generally is – It's like a year. Yeah, it might take up to a year, maybe a little bit quicker than that. But it's slow, gradual, and it's consistent, right? Yes. And maybe we'll do this. Maybe we'll take a screenshot of like your – Oh, yeah, like my macro factor. Yeah, your macro factor weight, and it's just kind of like a perfect – I mean, there's obviously little fluctuations, but it's just like perfectly consistent. When you're on it, you're on it. And it's doing exactly what it needs to do, right? I don't want to be the weirdo that's going on vacation to some beautiful place and I'm like packing my chicken and rice to eat or like being the person that has to like research the restaurants. And if you're like, I want to go and have a good vacation and relax. Right. Yeah. Has that ever been a concern for you? Like, um, during all this time, like, oh, I'm about to go on a weekend trip. And like, what am I going to do about eating? So I would say yes. No. So at the very beginning of my fitness, health, journey or whatever, definitely. So, because like you said before, when you start something, you're just in that mindset. that you have to be a hundred percent. Um, this is a good example. So I went on a little, like a week trip. My husband had a work trip, so I went with him. Um, I packed like seven protein shakes and like a bunch of jerky and stuff, but that was just to like eat during the day. And then at night you just kind of do your own thing. So kind of like my chicken that I eat on the way to dinner. If you do a little bit of prep work at the beginning, you have the additional flexibility for everything else. Yep. Right. Yeah. We joke around about the, the travel chicken. It's pretty funny, but it works and it's smart. Yeah. Um, let's. The chin-up thing is interesting. Let's talk about that because it's different coming from me or from Rip or from anyone else to say, like, if you want to get your first chin-up, you're a woman. This is what you need to do versus, like, actually having done it, right? So, yeah, there was times that you could hit one. I think there was times where you couldn't hit any, right? Yes, when I was heavier. Yeah, you couldn't hit any. So, yeah, obviously part of it, if you're weighing close to 200 pounds and you don't have a huge, huge, huge deadlift, you're going to have trouble. So from what you can remember, because I remember it, but from what you can remember, can you run everybody through the process? How did you get your first chin-up, and then after that, very quickly, it was, like, five, six, seven, like, a bunch, right, in a row? So my very first chin-up was actually before you, but just to kind of get some context to everybody, that was I was at, like, a very light weight, but I didn't do it healthily, and I just kind of tried it one day and just got one. But that was when I was still training in Austin. I had already been able to press over 100 pounds. I was, you know. Deadlifting in the 250, whatever, 270. range um but then my mental health got a little bit better i gained a bunch of more weight back. because i was happier and then i just couldn't do them anymore yep um but it's kind of i think i've joked with you before as you lose weight it's like chin-ups get one percent easier for every pound and then squats get like 10 harder for every pound it's just an awful inverse relationship um i guess i'm trying to remember the exact context of your question like when it happened i think i let's go through sorry let's go through the like uh run run us through what you did like what was the process sure um so there was a lot of negatives so you know you jump up hold yourself slowly lower yourself back down um i had done banded chin-ups before. this just might be me but i don't think there's a they don't feel as effective as like a negative yeah they're not right um i'm trying to remember how i eventually just got one i don't know just kind of just do it well yeah so so you started with uh hold at the top oh yes right yeah so i'd have you like and as you were still training at wfac because rip, you, come around and screw with you. That's true. Yeah, Rip loves to just randomly walk up and tell you you're doing something wrong. And that's just a mind, like it just messes with you. For sure. Well, to my credit, I think, like I think when you told him, oh, this is what Nick told me to do, he'd just be like, okay, and just walk away. Like you didn't actually. Yeah, that's kudos to you. He doesn't argue. Because he won't, yeah. You're doing stupid shit, but if Nick told you to do it. Yeah. So you started with holds. And then I think once you're, and this is kind of the protocol I typically use, and I didn't make this up, right? This came from Rip. But you hold it at the top, and then once you can hold it, like in control for a while, you don't want to spend too many weeks like just holding. That's not a good idea. So once you can control the top and hold it, then you start doing negatives. And then you do that until the negatives are fairly controlled. So like where you're not just dropping straight down, right? Yes. So that's the point I think where, at least like where Rip was kind of interjecting, because you were doing holds. So usually when you go, when you're able to do negatives, you just do negatives. So, um, but there was a reason I was having you do that. Cause I think the, um, um, yeah, I think I was just slowing you down a little bit. Cause, uh, so anyway, so it's holds then the negatives, once the negatives get kind of controlled where you're like, have really good control all the way down, you're probably ready to start doing partials. So then, um, yeah, so then it's partial, just go down as much as you can and then come back up. And then once you get to the partials, it starts to move pretty quick, right? Then you, once you get full range of motion, once you hit one, this is what people mess up. Once you can do like one or two, then it's just practice. So yeah, if you remember, it was like, um, in, in five minutes, do like as many as you can, or in seven minutes, do as many as you can, however you string them together. Like if you can do five at once or you do one every 10 seconds. Yeah. And that was another thing ripped in like, why are you going to, um, and then, uh, yeah. And then eventually you can start stringing them together. And then, uh, and this happens all the time. It's like, once you can string two or three together, then they. ramping up. Like how many chin-ups can you do now at one, at one time? Five, six. Yeah. So, um, and I mean, there's a lot of women, I would probably say most women that can't even do one. Right. So, um, it's definitely an achieve, achievable thing. Um, and, um, as your, as your deadlift goes up and everything, then you can, you can just do more of them. So I don't know. Chin-ups are just kind of cool, right? And they're good exercise. It's kind of like one of those burlesque I was talking about, like curls. It's just kind of fun to just go and show off with. Right. Yeah. Let's get into sort of still kind of talking about the, the kind of balance situation. Right. So, um, I mean, obviously I know what you're into now, uh, but over the course of, uh, of your training, um, I can't really remember, but was there, was there, were there any other like physical hobbies you were doing? No. So, I mean, you joke really early about people who just strength train, but that's all I was really kind of into. Um, I am not athletic. Like, you know, this, I did soccer in high school, but that was just, just more of the team thing. And I, I have no hand eye coordination. That's. just not me. So I really enjoyed the strength training because it was just all me. What I put in is what I got out. And then I could see the progress and it was, it's like a self esteem boost. Like, you know that you're stronger than the average person. Right. But I did get to that point a little, Oh, it's probably been about a year and a half ago where I'm just like, this is kind of boring. Like strength training is almost like a medicine, right? Um, it's fun. Yep. And, but like when you do it, it's not always that fun, but you know, you've got to do it. But I wanted to try something new. Um, again, I didn't want to do anything like team related. That's just not me. I tried BJJ. Oh yes, you did. You hated it. It was not, it's just not for me. No, that's, that's understandable. It's pretty weird. It is a little bit weird. It's just in my head all the time. But, um, I decided I wanted something as individual. So I was looking at either rock climbing, believe it or not, or pole dancing. And we're in Wichita Falls. We no longer have a rock climbing gym, but we do have a pole dancing studio that is just fabulous. And I wanted to choose something where my strength would be, uh, an absolute asset. So I, I'm not afraid to admit, I, I'm a little bit vain, and I like the little bit of self-esteem that comes with being better than other people. And I don't want to say I'm better at pole dancing because I'm certainly not graceful or better. That's not vanity at all, though. I mean, seriously, that's a valid driver of humans, so for sure. But obviously being stronger is better for all activities. So if you're golfing, if you are doing softball, it doesn't matter. Of course, being stronger will confer a benefit. But first of all, the hand-eye coordination thing. But then, to me, it wasn't as direct. So when you're pole dancing, you have to be able to pull yourself into an invert. So I wanted to give it a shot, and it's been great. So I told my husband I wanted to try it. I think he thought I was joking. And then I came back a couple weeks later, and I'm like, no, I really want to try this. And surprisingly, weirdly enough, he was very much into it and bought me a gift card. Weird, right? He's like, yeah, sure, try this. He bought me a gift card, and I didn't even use up the entirety of my gift card before I was signing up for just monthly lessons or an unlimited monthly subscription. And it's been just so much fun. And I encourage you. And you will make it. listening, so what, six women you have in your audience maybe? Just to give it a shot, because I think people have in their mind, I don't mean to turn your strength training podcast. into a pole dancing commercial. No, no, it's all good. It's, benefited my life tremendously, because you got my wife into it, too. You're welcome. But I think people have in their mind like, maybe they've gone to like a seedy strip club. It's not like that at all. At least in our studio, the owner of the studio is fabulous. It's just very inclusive, inclusive, all sizes, activity levels, whatever, are welcome. They are very affirming in what you do, so again, I am not graceful, so if I could do a nice spin, everybody's like cheering for you, and it's just a bunch of women having fun. To me, I always say it's like playing on a playground. So strength training, you enjoy it when it's done, at least in my mind. It's fun to hit like PRs and move heavy stuff. I enjoy pole dancing throughout the entire thing. I look forward to it. When we're done with classes, I want to keep going until I'm just exhausted. So that is what my, athletic schedule, however you want to say it, It looks like now I train with strength training Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and I do pull classes Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday for two to three hours a time. Yep. And how hard are the classes? It varies. There's some like what they call like a low flow where you're not pulling yourself up. And then there's some, we have some instructors that they're most, I don't want to say it's like a boot camp, but it kind of is where you just pull yourself up like five reps on each side. And when I say an invert, like you literally, it's almost like a pull up. You're pulling yourself up and then flipping over. Right, right. Yeah. We got a few things to talk about there. So, um, uh, number one, a hundred percent in terms of like, uh, this is, this is the, this is the reality of the situation. Strength training is not fun. Um, unless, unless you're like wired for that. Like if, if you really get enjoy enjoyment out of, um, out of going to the gym, hitting PRS and that drives you, it's, it's fun at first. Yes. Because everybody enjoys that at first, but there comes a point where it's just work and it's necessary work. I think you said it's medicine. That's exactly right. Like that's the, that's the way I look. It's something I have to do. If I could get away with not doing it, I absolutely 100% would. Just take a pill? Exactly. Where there was a time in my life for sure that I really, really enjoyed going to the gym, and it was therapeutic, and I really, really enjoyed it, and it brought a lot of value to my life. Where now, it brings value to my life for sure, but every training session, I would rather not be doing it. I think there's some times where anytime I'm pulling, I just love it. You just get in that mind space. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But besides that, you're right. You just kind of have to push through it. Yeah, for sure, and that's the important part, again, is the balance, is you have to recognize that this is a thing. What are the alternatives, right? It's to slowly deteriorate. It's to be injured. It's to be hurting, and not that with barbell training, you're not going to be hurting because, yeah, pain is just a part of life, especially as you're getting older, but still, you need the capability, and pain is less of a factor the more capable you are. Yeah, yeah. And then also being able to do anything that you want to do is another thing that people don't think about. And being able to do that for as long as possible. So, you know, something like pole. How did you find the pole studio? Was it just random, like you just saw it one day? So this is like one of those core memory things. I remember when I was young, my parents were watching a 60 Minutes episode. And this lady was talking about, I guess pole sport was growing at this point. This would have been like early 2000s, maybe late 90s. And the premise was, are people pole dancers because they're fit? Or do you become fit from being involved in pole? And that just has stuck with me over the years. So I just kind of Googled it, which so far is a small. So there is one pole dancing studio. And luckily it's a fabulous one. Yeah, it's good people there. So, okay, yeah, so that's really interesting. Because I think, and this may not be 100% accurate. But something like pole dancing. That's the accurate word, right? Pole fitness, pole sport is going to, in the absence of like any training, it's going to select for people who are smaller, who are maybe naturally stronger, like not that you can't get strong, but it's like with anything. It's like if somebody shows up who is not sort of fit for that specific thing, there's a very high likelihood that they won't stick with it. You know what I'm saying? Because they get frustrated and it's like, oh, this isn't for me. There's a group of people who will show up and do the work to make it their thing, and then there's people who are just going to be naturally like gravitating towards it, right? So that's, I mean, that's the case with anything. But you are a 160-pound woman who like flies around this pole. Yeah. And how much do you think strength training played a part in you actually enjoying doing it? Oh, hugely. You can even probably even ask the owner of the studio. But so. inverts if you go online most people can probably if you go in zero training whatsoever hit an invert maybe six months maybe eight months maybe even a year it's just hard especially as a woman to have the upper body strength to pull yourself up right and do it safely so you could probably run and just kick yourself into going upside down but you're probably going to injure yourself and. it's more difficult i was inverting within like three months yep and a lot of that was just like the form and trying to get it right um other things too so i struggle with a lot of like the more graceful aspects of it but it's been made easier by my strength and i can i feel like i can go longer so i can like climb the pole repeatedly i can pull my i can do the same tricks over and over and over even though i get tired like anybody else does i think that having that basis in strength just gave me a little bit of a boost at the very beginning uh probably a big boost oh yeah. no for real yeah yeah seriously um and i think that's an important thing to understand is like if if uh you know if down the line you're interested in doing something else it doesn't matter what it is it could be it could, We pull – what's the proper term? Sorry. I don't – you can call it pull, pull sport. Let's call it pull. All right. Yeah. So you can do pull. You can do jiu-jitsu. You can do – you can just go to do whatever classes you want to do, whatever physical hobbies you want to do, even like, I don't know, pickleball or pickup basketball or whatever. All that stuff becomes easier and more likely that you'll actually enjoy it, right? And like people who hunt, people who want to go on hikes, you almost like – you almost don't need anything else. If you're building that baseline capacity, you can usually just kind of plug into something and then just – you already have the baseline attributes and capability to be more successful than you otherwise would have, right? Because you're not dealing with the strength aspect of it because anything that you do is going to make you stronger if you're not ready for it. Right. But if you've already covered that aspect of it, you can focus on like having fun and learning the skill, right? Yeah. And I think even if it's something that you really enjoy and having fun, there's always those moments where you're frustrated. Right? Like why – Why can't I land this move or whatever it happens to be? But if you're strong, you don't have to also worry about, are my muscles going to give out as I'm trying to pull myself up? You can just focus on the technical aspects of it. Right, right. Yeah, so in terms of the stuff we always talk about with a two-factor model, I mean, there's a great argument for the skill component being affected positively by the acquisition of strength, right? Because not only is it one of the things that you can put aside in terms of getting better at something, because it's already there, but it's not just a little thing. It's like really it's the most fundamental thing, right? So it doesn't really matter what you're doing as long as you're – if you're stronger, you're going to be better at it on day one. I also think if you have a basis in the strength training like what we do when we do starting strength, it keeps you from spinning your wheels on silly things. So I think in any sport you'll go to. You'll see – I'm not a sports person, so maybe I'm wrong, but people try to get you stronger by doing like strength things with the sport. So, like, maybe in pull, they might have you try to get stronger by doing, like, a pull chin-up or things like that. But if you're already, you know, doing presses in the gym, you don't have to worry about doing the pull chin-ups. That's exactly right. And if you're going to spend 15 minutes trying to get your upper body stronger, why not just go and press 100 pounds? That's exactly right. Yeah, and it actually is an effective long-term. You know, that's the other problem. Because you're right, that happens in every sport that you do. It's like coaches might start thinking a little bit outside the box, like, okay, well, I need to make people more fundamentally more capable or more athletic. So how am I going to do that? And in, like, something like jiu-jitsu, it comes out like, okay, we're going to run around the mat or we're going to do, like, all this. We're going to do, like, push-ups or we're going to do, you know, pull each other with the gi. And it's like you're not actually getting stronger. You're not actually building any strength. So absolutely, absolutely. And then if you do end up having to do that stuff, it just kind of falls into the practice category rather than. Exactly. Rather than the development category, right? Okay, cool. Let me think. What else do I need to ask you while I have you here? We covered training. We covered balance. We covered nutrition. I keep telling you that you should have a nutrition blog. I guess it wouldn't be a nutrition blog, but more like a practical advice blog. Because people, and this is another thing that's cool about you, is that you are able to take, you're able to just implement practical advice. Whether it's your own advice or things you get from other people. Because everybody loves to complicate everything, right? So it's like you have a goal. Nutrition's a good one, right? So it's something that kind of everybody can understand. You have a nutrition goal. So part of it is just not knowing what to do. The other part of it is maybe sort of subconsciously looking for excuses to not proceed or make things more difficult. But you have had a lot of success on the body composition, aesthetic, nutrition side of things. How? It's simple. is it or how am i wrong about that how complicated is it no i think you can just take it down yeah it's very simple um at least the way that i do it and again it goes back to like knowing who you are if you're somebody that just like revels in the complicity and you like looking up new recipes. every week my method's not going to work for you but i i don't think i get bored that easily repeating the same thing so once a week again i make my bulk chicken i make a bulk grain i do like a i always have to have a sweet thing so i do like i have a protein pudding that i make every week and then i just eat that throughout the week and then the weekend comes again i just make the same thing so every day for lunch i'm having my quinoa bowl with my chicken i might add some like veggies i have randomly or i eat a lot of sauerkraut which is weird but i'll throw sauerkraut in there so i make this big bowl with like sauerkraut in there um every day for breakfast i'm not a breakfast. person not a morning person so i just have coffee i have one protein shake a day and then that gives you the flexibility for other things but if you know okay by the time i go out for dinner or i'm going to have dinner i've consumed 100 grams of protein, and about 800 calories so i have, the flexibility to go get a pizza or maybe you don't want a pizza. Maybe you want a grilled chicken breast at home, but then you can have like a Ben and Jerry's pint of ice cream, whatever. So I just, I, I do the strict stuff. So I have more flexibility on the back end. Right. Yeah. And you, I mean, you, you eat, I mean, it's like, you're not seeing it. Well, and not only that, you're like, uh, you, you like food. Like you're, you're our, you're our resident food consultant. Like, it's like, should we try this place? And you're like, yeah, go. Yeah. So, so, um, yeah, you know, you know about food. Um, the, uh, so, so in terms of, in terms of technical knowledge, do you, how much time do you spend thinking about like your actual macros, your actual, like on a day to day basis, how much time are you thinking about? Like, um, are you, you know, just all the things that everybody worries about with nutrition. It's like, do I need to optimize this thing? Do I need to worry about this other thing? Not a whole lot of time. So at the beginning more so, but that was more figuring out like what worked for me, and what didn't. And then by the end, it's just almost automatic. Like, I can just copy my recipe day to day to day because it's largely the same. Right. And then I think kind of what you said earlier, people get caught up in the complexity because, one, it's easy because then you can delay it because you can't make a decision because you're just trying to be the most optimal. But I try to approach it, if I'm 80-ish percent of the way there, it's just going to carry itself. 100%. So if you look at my, for example, on my macro factor, my intake, I'm supposed to probably be at a 250-calorie deficit. The average is probably closer to, like, 150 to 200 because I like to eat. But in the long run, I'm still going to get the results because consistency is better than perfection. Like, if I just got hung up on, like, I went over 100 calories today, like, that's not going to get me anywhere. Yep. Yeah. In fact, perfection will just undo everything. Trying to achieve perfection will just undo everything. So, yeah, we talked about it a little bit before, but compliance and consistency is the key. That's the whole thing. Yeah, exactly. And it takes less brain space. It takes less brain space. And the people who do impressive things... are, uh, I mean, there's always, there's always going to be a, uh, like a predisposition or genetic component. Like you're just, you're just good at something. Um, but I don't know, would you categorize yourself as somebody who was born to lift weights or like be good at lifting weights? I hope my parents are listening, but I don't think I have like athletic genes. My dad always joked. It's good. I had like a scholarship for like, um, the book stuff, you know? Right. Right. Yeah. So, um, and, and that's been my experience too. It's like people who, um, otherwise have, um, yeah, this is, this, this sounds unnecessarily shitty, but don't have like a predisposition to be super athletic. Um, you can do really, really impressive things, um, through consistency and just sticking to a process. Right. So listen, I did soccer four years in high school. I made varsity made my senior year, I think just because I felt sorry for me. I think I played one game when we were like up by nine points. Like I, I did not have the genetic code, I guess, to be an athlete. Right. Right. Yeah. Um, we were talking about your, your mom a little bit before. Right. Um, oh yeah. And that's kind of probably the last thing we'll talk about, but that's kind of a good thing to hear you say because definitely, you know, over the years, it's like you've been pretty rigid with your thinking about how things should go. And I actually remember having a conversation about your parents somewhere where you were saying, my parents need to train or need to do something, but, like, what do I do because they don't have the equipment or whatever, right? So, yeah, will you talk a little bit about that? Sure. I think that's something else, too, that comes with experience is I have become less dogmatic. I'll say I'm more convinced that strength training is the answer, but if you don't have a barbell, if you don't have a squat rack, that doesn't mean you can't do something to improve yourself. And mom and dad, I'm sorry, I'm using you as an example, but they're kind of the perfect example. So my parents are in their 60s. My mom was a stay-at-home mom and then went and worked for the local school district. My dad has been a maintenance worker his whole life, so I will brag of my dad a little bit. He's just, like, one of those nerds. Naturally, really strong old guys. Well, I say naturally. 3.15 the other day like it was nothing at the gym when he came to visit me. And he doesn't train, right? He's never pulled a barbell before in his life. That's amazing. It was something else. Imagine if he trained. I think he's looking into barbells now because he has a little bit of pride that we talked about. He wants to show off a little bit. But my mom is a great example. Her and I are built a lot alike that we're very particular. We like to follow structure and follow rules. And I was having some trouble trying to help them figure out a training regimen that would work with their lives. I mean, they're nearing retirement age. They raise goats. They have like 36 acres, so they're always busy on their little farm. But I put together just like a dumbbell program for her. And she's been doing it for four or five months now. And we've had to change some things like we've moved to threes like what you mentioned before. And she would say that it's drastically improved her life. Her lower back pain, I have her doing like dumbbell RDLs, has almost gone away completely. She said if she was in car rides or whatever, she would always have to stuff a pillow there trying to go to sleep. She'd have back pain. Right. I've. Kind of like we were talking about before, that if you pursue perfection, you're never going to improve. That's right. Years ago, if they would have approached me, I would have been like, well, you don't have barbells, you don't have a squat rack, so there's no point. But the fact that they have dumbbells, they have a dedicated space in their house, and they have an hour in the mornings, they're making progress. I mean, they're getting stronger. Even if my mom is chipping away a pound or two with her Arnold press or whatever, it's still preparing them for their 70s and 80s. Yeah, not only that, but you're also laying the groundwork for, like, there's going to come a point where, like, oh, it's not working. But then you have an easier conversation. It's like, hey, like, it's time to get some barbells, right? And I've done that many times where, like, somebody's telling me that they hate barbells. All they have is kettlebells. Like, okay, well, do this and this and this. And then when it stops working, then they're like, what do I do next? If you want to keep making progress, like, maybe consider a barbell, right? So it's a way easier transition then, right? I had to have that conversation because I had my mom doing, like, goblet squats, essentially, and she has those power blocks. So as they get bigger, my mom is actually shorter than me and, like, has lighter barbells. Her barbells are shorter. She's having trouble holding the – could you imagine trying to like power block squat like 40 – she was doing like 45 pounds on her squat, like to a bench and back up. So we've had to make some modifications, but I think I kind of – they're probably going to get some barbells soon, I hope. Yeah, yeah, awesome. Okay, well, as the designated representative for women everywhere – For all women everywhere, all time. Yeah, anything you want to say, anything we missed, any advice? Advice? So I guess I'll say it over and over again. Know who you are and just try to build – if you're trying to make changes, take into account who you are. Don't make drastic changes. It'll come. You're not going to get accidentally bulky. So have you ever talked to people who have claimed they put on masks too easily? I've had this conversation with several people. They're like, oh, I just can't drink because I put on masks too easily. That's ridiculous. I've heard that before. I mean, it is, but you've got to remember it's like somebody may like get a little bit of a tricep and be like, oh, my God. Or I think that they – They think that they're in the gym, so they start eating more, and then it's more – fat as opposed to muscle. So the scale is a problem too, right? Because especially when you start strength training, um, your, your body weight, uh, you almost have to have this conversation. If, if you're doing all the things, right, you're adding weight to the bar and you're increasing your protein, maybe eating a little bit more food. Um, those scale may stay, will. stay the same for sure. Um, or it may even go up a little bit. And even over time, it's like, I've had, I've had so many women and it's like, you objectively like looking at them, you could take measurements and they have lost inches, like lost inches, but their scale weight has gone up and, and it, it screws with their head really badly. Right. So, but again, that's a thing that maybe comes with time and just, um, and just getting comfortable with the idea. So that's, I mean, that's the job of the coach to help, help people work through that. So, um, so yeah, you won't get bulky, um, figure out who you are, make sure you are comfortable. or know who you are and how this is going to work out. And the body that you want is probably on the other side of the barbell. Exactly. Right. Very nice. Very nice. Very nice. Okay. All right. Thank you very much. All right. And thank you. guys again if you have any questions or if you have any suggestions for us uh go to podcast at ssgyms.com is your like stuff public do you want to yeah if they want to go to my instagram that's fine it's just aaron spiva nothing okay aaron spiva s-p-i-v-a yes i think it's like aaron m spiva at aaron m spiva okay all right yeah um and if you follow me i do whenever she tags me. and stuff i post it so you'll you'll see her and you'll see her fly around the pole and stuff like that it's great awesome okay thanks a lot folks we will see you next time